They may live in the same city, but Mark Dever and Jim Wallis don’t run in the same circles. Dever is a pastor’s pastor, and Wallis is a social activist. So I was excited to learn that Leadership managing editor Skye Jethani interviewed them together for a piece published in the summer issue. Out of Ur has released a couple video segments from the meeting.

Despite their different backgrounds and callings, Dever and Wallis reach some agreement. Dever says, “Christianity is personal but not private,” and Wallis says, “God is personal but never private.” However, the two men understand Jesus’ teaching differently and reach conflicting conclusions about the mission of the church. Dever believes the church should care for the poor among its membership, but he does not believe the New Testament commissions the church to solve society’s problems. Wallis, however, invokes heroes such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Charles Finney to suggest that the church set a tone for fighting social injustice such as racism.

It’s evident that Dever and Wallis would not define the gospel in the same way. Wallis cites Matthew 25 to argue for judgment on the basis of how we treat the hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and strangers. “I’m saying that social justice is not an option,” Wallis says. “It’s integral to the gospel. Good news to the poor is integral to the gospel Jesus taught and lived,” Wallis says. Such good works done in the community are evangelistic, Wallis contends, because by doing them we show that God loves the world.

Dever counters by saying Jesus does not intend in Matthew 25 to show Jews how they can enter the kingdom of God. Rather, Jesus aims to teach them that no one can do enough good works to merit God’s acceptance. “[I]f I say that righteous acts bring me into the kingdom of God, then I’ve got to worry about clothing enough people and feeding enough people to be forgiven by God for my sin,” Dever says.

It’s well worth the time reading or watching the whole interview to help you think clearly and biblically about the mission of the church. In my own ministry, I’ve been greatly helped by studying TGC’s Theological Vision for Ministry. Here’s the most relevant paragraph for this discussion:

It is not enough that the church should counter the values of the dominant culture. We must be a counter–culture for the common good. We want to be radically distinct from the culture around us and yet, out of that distinct identity, we should sacrificially serve neighbors and even enemies, working for the flourishing of people, both here and now, and in eternity. We therefore do not see our corporate worship services as the primary connecting point with those outside. Rather, we expect to meet our neighbors as we work for their peace, security, and well–being, loving them in word and deed. If we do this we will be “salt” and “light” in the world (sustaining and improving living conditions, showing the world the glory of God by our patterns of living; Matt 5:13–16). As the Jewish exiles were called to love and work for the shalom of Babylon (Jer 29:7), Christians too are God’s people “in exile” (1 Peter 1:1; James 1:1). The citizens of God’s city should be the best possible citizens of their earthly city (Jer 29:4–7). We are neither overly optimistic nor pessimistic about our cultural influence, for we know that, as we walk in the steps of the One who laid down his life for his opponents, we will receive persecution even while having social impact (1 Peter 2:12).